This Way Network: Michael Gavlak & Joel Fieri

Michael:
Good morning, everyone. Welcome to this sunny… Well, wherever you are, this day that has weather. It’s your host, Michael, here at the chat session. Joel, I don’t ever do an intro like that. I was just trying one out.

Joel:
Well last time-

Michael:
I just came in.

Joel:
I had to do the intro last time if you remember, Mike. We cut and there was an empty chair.

Michael:
Oh, that’s right.

Joel:
Couple weeks ago you came running and you were closing the window for some production outside. So I had to use my professional broadcast skills to take it up. And I impressed myself, if nobody else. So.

Michael:
And you had to basically vamp, you had no idea how long you were going to have to sit here and talk.

Joel:
Right. I feel like I’m used to interviewing an empty chair or something.

Michael:
I love that cultural reference. I love that. That’s beautiful.

Joel:
Well yeah. This is as political as I get, I guess, but.

Michael:
What was the context? Actually what was the context of that? What point was he making? I remember that happening.

Joel:
Oh, I don’t remember. I think he was just… I don’t really know.

Michael:
He was aiming some kind of criticism. I think it was back at Hollywood or something. I don’t know.

Joel:
I don’t know. Yeah. I don’t remember. It was too long ago, but so.

Michael:
So I need to go back and listen to our last episode and listen to what you said. Because actually now that you mention that, I didn’t hear it. Maybe I’ll write down what you said and that’ll be my intro from now on.

Joel:
Well, actually, yeah. Before we get into that though, Mike, I got to tell you, I have a problem. I was a little… I caught your conversation with Jefferson Drexler last week. And I have to say I’m triggered. And I know, I think your mom was listening. And I think we have two or three gathered here. But we need to do an intervention with you, Mike.

Michael:
Oh, no, no.

Joel:
I heard you say something. And I think it’s unrepentant sin in your life. And so we’re here. We can punch you.

Michael:
Wait, wait, producer, producer.

Joel:
Lisa’s here.

Michael:
Did you know about this?

Joel:
Lisa’s part of it.

Michael:
She’s in on this?

Joel:
Everybody’s in it. Okay, Mike.

Michael:
Oh, hold on. Hold on, hold on.

Joel:
Okay.

Michael:
I got to… We’re going to prolong this agony for me. I got to take a drink of water here and prepare myself.

Joel:
This could turn into a major intervention here.

Michael:
Oh, man. I don’t like surprises. Actually, I do like surprises.

Joel:
Well I know. But I didn’t like it either, like I said. Jefferson handled it well. He’s a broadcast professional. But he’s been watching puppy videos ever since. He’s so.

Michael:
I almost did a spit take right there. I literally almost did a… Right as I’m sipping. He’s watching puppy-

Joel:
Okay. You want to hear it?

Michael:
Wait.

Joel:
Well here it is.

Michael:
Hold on. Hold on.

Joel:
You want to hear about your problem?

Michael:
My transgression?

Joel:
Yes Mike.

Michael:
Hamartia, my hamartia where I missed the mark. Right?

Joel:
Okay. You ready for this?

Michael:
Okay, go ahead.

Joel:
Mike, you are a wrestler, which means you have caused immense pain in your life.

Michael:
Oh yes I have.

Joel:
To those around you.

Michael:
I have.

Joel:
I had a roommate in college who was a wrestler.

Michael:
Oh, so you are also intimately aware of the culture of wrestling.

Joel:
Oh yes. You are sick, demented individuals-

Michael:
Very.

Joel:
I’m sorry, but I… You used to-

Michael:
I’ve done permanent damage to other people’s bodies and to my body as.

Joel:
Oh, it’s your b… Oh, okay. So, well the consequences of your sin are not far away.

Michael:
Right. Right.

Joel:
Oh, my Lord. He used to do the sternum thing. Do you know what the sternum thing is? Yes.

Michael:
I don’t know exactly.

Joel:
He used to get me in a hold-

Michael:
There’s always different names, yeah.

Joel:
And take his elbow, and he would just grind it into my sternum. I would walk around San Diego state for two days going… “Ugh, pain.”

Michael:
Oh, yes.

Joel:
And then he had this movie called “Downright Embarrassing.” I don’t know if you know that one.

Michael:
I don’t.

Joel:
Well, he would roll over on his back, get me on his stomach, take his legs and he would try and make a wishbone out of me, put it that way. And get me to the point where I would cry “uncle,” and then he would hold it for another five seconds just because he could.

Michael:
Oh dude, you are speaking my language. Yes. You have been-

Joel:
See? You’re laughing maniacally. Look at you. You’re-

Michael:
I’m enjoying every… Oh I have to-

Joel:
I got the holy water now. You’re just talking about demon possession. Wrestlers just might be those among us. So.

Michael:
We wrestle not against flesh and blood. Well, some of us do.

Joel:
For your sick pleasure. Yes.

Michael:
But.

Joel:
But I just had to get it off of my chest. I’m never going to turn my back… I think for the time being, we need to keep this relationship virtual because-

Michael:
There’s hope for me? There’s hope for me?

Joel:
I don’t trust you. I just don’t trust you.

Michael:
All right. So we’ll just-

Joel:
You have too much… That look of joy on your face right now is a little too much.

Michael:
Man, it’s like having to turn against yourself for me to repent of my… The pain, the affliction. It’s the sense of power, right? There’s this sense of control of your opponent.

Joel:
I’m a victim, Mike. I’m a victim, I don’t know-

Michael:
Well, when you say it was your roommate in college, right?

Joel:
Right.

Michael:
It was your roommate in college?

Joel:
Yeah.

Michael:
And so I have to communicate to people that is a whole other level of understanding. Because if you’re a wrestler it means you started either in elementary school or middle school or high school, and you started wrestling then. But when you get to college, there are fewer colleges that have wrestling teams, very few colleges that have wrestling teams-

Joel:
Yeah. Well I-

Michael:
So all of those people that were really good go to those few colleges.

Joel:
Yeah. I think he was just a wrestler in high school. But anyways, once a wrestler, always a wrestler. I guess you just can’t stop hurting people can you, Mike?

Michael:
Well it’s in the Bible. Right? Was Jacob wrong to take on God in that physical conflict? Right? That’s a huge question. Right?

Joel:
Well yeah.

Michael:
It’s if he could wrestle with God. And he received a, you could call it a career-ending injury, a career ending injury. Right? He got some part of his hip or whatever was knocked out of socket. So-

Joel:
Well, he was wrestling for God’s blessing though, right, or?

Michael:
He’s like, “Yes, you’re not going away. I’m taking you down. You’re going to stay here. I’m going to put you in a headlock. I’m going to put this elbow in your sternum.” And then God’s like, “I’m going to knock your hip out of socket.” You think God in flesh-

Joel:
But you know what? Yeah. No, I think that Dennis Breaker says that’s what Judaism requires that you wrestle with God, because that’s what Jacob did-

Not that you necessarily believe in God, not necessarily. But you wrestle with God, either concept of God or that you actually wrestle with God as part of your life, as part of your existence. So, but no, anyways-

Michael:
It’s literally the name of the ethnicity, Israel-

Joel:
Yeah, wrestling.

Michael:
Means “those who wrestle with God,” right? Isi-el is the God part of that phrase, but wrestled. All right. Well, you’ve really had me in suspense and I was really nervous. It was very effective.

Joel:
Oh, thank you. I-

Michael:
Next time I see you I’m taking you down.

Joel:
Yeah. Like I said, that’s what I said. And with my roommate, I would… You talked about your friend saying, “Oh, you couldn’t be that bad.” And then you were just like, “30 seconds later he was screaming from mercy.”

Michael:
Oh, I did tell that story. Oh, I told that with Jefferson.

Joel:
Yeah. Well, that was me too. I was like, “Oh, come on.” And he just wrestled a little bit

I was like, “No, that can take…” I kept coming back for more because I was a stupid kid. And he would just think of different ways to-

Michael:
You knock people off balance.

Joel:
Yeah.

Michael:
Yeah.

Joel:
So I suppose I deserved it, but character.

Michael:
Well, there’s a certain… We’re going to talk about wrestling the whole time, aren’t we? There’s a certain physics to it. It’s actually all physics.

Joel:
Oh, it is.

Michael:
It’s pure physics, but it’s also intuition. Right?

Joel:
Right.

Michael:
And so you are using your opponent’s strength and leverage against him as much as possible. Sometimes it’s sheer strength. But if you just do sheer strength you are going to fail and gas out, et cetera. You have to redirect their… They’re trying to oppose you. And that’s as pure as human conflict can get without additional tools, right? A knife or a gun ends the fight. But when you have… It’s just mono on mono.

Joel:
Right.

Michael:
Woo.

Joel:
Well, no, I did… And actually in my twenties, I did take judo for a while, which is basically jiu-jitsu made into a sport, Japanese wrestling. It is essentially wrestling, but you can grab the, the-

Michael:
Oh, yeah.

Joel:
The thing. Yeah.

Michael:
So it’s-

Joel:
But my back couldn’t take it. I could do the throws fine. But when you got down on the mat and started wrestling, I couldn’t. That’s when I couldn’t quite hang.

Michael:
That is the hard part. People don’t understand. Well, when MMA… Wait, what was this say? “Thank you for being here today. Stay tuned for new show content coming from “Christian Podcast Central.”” Oh, okay, good.

Joel:
That’s right.

Michael:
Behind the scenes. One last thing about wrestling. And then we’ll talk about that little reminder was. Most people still don’t understand how to defend yourself. It’s just not like if you’ve got some strong, overpowering brute coming at you, it happens fast and it’s over fast, if you’re not prepared or whatever.

Michael:
And so right until mixed martial arts, MMA. Ultimate fighting was what it was first called, and then it became MMA. And I was watching that from the beginning and the first winners, the first heroes and stars come out of that were… the category was called grappling. It was always the grapplers, the people who could get down on the ground and finish, right? Just finish the job, cut somebody’s oxygen off, or tie them in such a knot they’re in such pain-

Joel:
Right. Get them to tap out.

Michael:
Or they twist their arm open, et cetera. And then it was like, okay, now it’s a popular sport. So more people know that my sport is the best sport. Right? But it was a little bit of justification, but I’d get my butt kicked by any one of those guys today. If you don’t keep it up, you lose it.

Michael:
All right. So Joel, you have… We are on this network. We’re making lots of friends and striking up partnerships and stuff. So do you guys have some content you’re going to be broadcasting here on ThisWay Network coming up? Are you able to disclose anything right now? Or is I’m just trying to-

Joel:
Well that’s… I know we’ve been talking with your producers on different shows. So really I…. You guys came to us and said you like our content and would like to put it on. So our door is open, our table is for you.

Joel:
So I know that one of the shows that you particularly like was Jefferson’s show with his dad called “Real Stuff My Dad Says,” that was one of the ones you really liked. So I’m looking forward to seeing that one come out on your network. I’ve had three podcasts over the years, different ones, two audio, and my latest, one video. So.

Michael:
So I think at least one of our producers has poured over a lot of the content you guys have and has made some selections or. So I’m out of the loop on a lot of this stuff. But I think as we grow, there’s going to be room for just about everything you guys create. So we love-

Joel:
Oh, that’s right. I see over on the side of the notes says Carty is the first one, Jay Carty, who was… Actually is interesting story. Jay was-

Michael:
Tell me the story. Yeah. My producer mentioned that. Yeah, yeah.

Joel:
Yeah. Jay was a camp director at a camp called Alpine outside of L.A. up in the mountains that I was a camper at when I was a kid back in the seventies. And it turns out that Jefferson was a camper there in the eighties.

Michael:
Wow.

Joel:
And he knows Jay. Jay was a friend of his family, I think. And it was also a camp counselor or a camp director. So we both knew Jay. Jay’s a former NBA player. He’s 6’8, or he was. He passed away about four or five years ago actually. But he was on the Lakers with Wilt Chamberlain and Jerry West and all, which were my teams back when I was a kid.

Joel:
So when we started the podcast network years ago, he was one of the first people that we sought out. And back then, this is about 10 years ago, podcasting was just getting going. People were discovering this new ability to recorded material online. Mostly then it was audio material.

Joel:
So Jefferson and I were talking with, we got to find Jay Carty. So I think I found him. He was up in Santa Barbara and I called him up. And I had been on staff right out of high school. This-

Michael:
At the camp?

Joel:
At the camp. And so I worked under him for a little bit. And I said, “I don’t know if you remember me, remember me?” So, and I said, “I’ve started this podcast network. Would you want to be a part of it? Are you still…” Because he had left that camp and then gone on to be a speaker. And he was an author. And actually, another nugget about Jay is he taught Kareem Abdul-Jabbar the sky hook, which was the most famous shot, unstoppable shot.

Michael:
It’s iconic. Right?

Joel:
He was assistant at UCLA when Lou Alcindor, who was Kareem, was at UCLA. And so Jay taught him the sky hook.

Michael:
Under Wooden?

Joel:
Yeah, under Wooden. He actually was the co-author of John Wooden’s book, “The Success.”

Michael:
I was in a room with John Wooden once in my life-

Joel:
Oh, really? Yeah.

Michael:
Before he passed. I was at UCLA. My wife’s cousin wanted to go see the gymnastics. UCLA gymnastics team was putting on a meet. I went and he was sitting across from me watching gymnastics. It was John Wooden.

Joel:
Really?

Michael:
Wow.

Joel:
Yeah. So-

Michael:
Living legend. Not living, but now.

Joel:
Yeah. So I called Jay, and I said-

Michael:
Carty? What’s the guy’s name again?

Joel:
Carty, C-A-R-T-Y, Jay Carty.

Michael:
Carty, Jay Carty.

Joel:
It’s called Carty’s Contemporary Classics. But I asked him, I said, “Would you like? He goes, “Well, it’s funny…” And this happened a lot. When we were first starting the podcast network. God would bring either us to people or people to us who were saying, “Is there any way I can do a podcast? I’ve heard about this podcasting thing. I like to get into it.” Or we would go to them and say, “Have you ever thought of podcasting?” And they would say, “Well, I have been. I have all this material. But I don’t know how to get it out there.” So that’s how we started the podcast network.

Joel:
But Jay, what was interesting to him… And this was something where God brings full circle to your life and blesses you. Because Jay’s like, he goes, “Joel, honestly,” he goes, “I’m dying.” He goes, “I’ve got about three or four years to live.” He goes, “I’ve got all these VHS tapes and these cassette tapes of my speaking and my teaching.”

Joel:
And he goes, “And I don’t know what to do with it.” He goes, “It’s my legacy. And I’ve been wondering and praying, “how do I get this online?”” And Jefferson and I just went, “Thank you, Lord. What a blessing. Jay will put you online.”

Joel:
So Jefferson digitized all of it, all VHS tapes from the nineties and the eighties, cassette tapes from the eighties. But Jay is a man’s man. He’s authoritative and he’s entertaining. And so we digitized it all. We put it online for him. And I think two or three years later, he passed. But I was able to see him up in Santa Barbara.

Joel:
And it was such a blessing because this man who had had such an impact on both of our youths, we were able to, at the end of his life, bless him by getting his life’s service for the Lord online where it’s going to live in perpetuity. So yeah, it’s-

Michael:
It’s solid gold. That’s buried treasure just falling in your lap.

Joel:
Yeah. And actually we-

Michael:
And now falling in our lap. That’s what we’re going to be putting on here?-

Joel:
Well yeah.

Michael:
Holy God. Honestly, anybody out there listen to Jay’s, we put it out in audio form years ago. And we’ve been reposting it as some of our classic videos.

Michael:
When we went full video, one of the things we wanted to do was get some of our old content back in video form. And even though it’s audio, you have the video window there with his picture on it. And it’s been one of our most popular podcasts. I think it’s been every bit as popular as Jefferson’s or mines.

Michael:
And Jay’s just a dynamic speaker. And he really had a lot to say. And God used him in some big ways. And so his ministry lives on, and on our network now it’s going to be on your network. So, there you go. What a blessing, huh?

Michael:
Thank you. Oh, my gosh.

Joel:
Thank you.

Michael:
Even though your you’re leery of me and my unrepentant sin, my unrepentant identification as a wrestler-

Joel:
Because it makes pay.

Michael:
Well let bygones be bygones.

Joel:
Yeah.

Michael:
Love covers a multitude of sins.

Joel:
Love… It’ll cover it.

Michael:
Joel. That is incredible news, love these stories of how God works. All right, just that story of… Did you and Jefferson… We’ve heard how you guys met from both of your points of view. And you didn’t know each other way back. You wanted to start something and your lives were put together. He was associated with the church that used to meet at the facility that’s now the studio, right?

Joel:
Right.

Michael:
So you have a studio and Jefferson came with it. He came with the building.

Joel:
Yeah, it was my church. I think we were at that church, I think for 12, 13 years in the first year or so.

Michael:
And you knew him as a member of the church?

Joel:
He used to be the pastor.

Michael:
So you knew him. And did know you all that time, or?

Joel:
I had seen him. He used to do the videos on it. But we did not know each other, no. I just knew he was one of the passengers. He was the video guy there. So, but.

Michael:
And then come to find out, you both went to the same camp, both had a relationship, or at least knew this guy.

Joel:
Yeah.

Michael:
And then he becomes… And now it’s our turn. And it’s… When you were talking about Jay and clearly indicating that this was a Believer, a Christian guy who has an incredible testimony, he is in the disembodied state right now. Right? The temporary disembodied state, according to scripture. Right? There’s a resurrection coming.

Michael:
And so he’s in God, in the presence of God. As Jesus said, “You will be”… “This day.”

Joel:
Well, “Absent from the body means present with the Lord.” Yeah.

Michael:
And so if God is all around us, right? And heaven is here…. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it in Heaven.” There is a future transition. But there’s a present sense of that kingdom, heaven, here at all times around us.

Michael:
So Jay’s right here. Right? He’s in God. I can’t wait to see him, meet him, and when he returns to that 6’8 frame. I have a friend that’s 6’8, so I get it.

Joel:
Yeah. So.

Michael:
At that camp did you ever play basketball? Did you play basketball against him?

Joel:
Oh yeah. He’s got some 6’8 elbows too. Yeah.

Michael:
Yeah. Right up here.

Joel:
Oh, and those guys, they’re like wrestlers. Okay. They can’t turn it off just because he was 50 something years old.

Michael:
Oh, right, right.

Joel:
Doesn’t mean he wasn’t going to… Doesn’t mean he was going to-

Michael:
He’s going to school you. He’s going to school you.

Joel:
Stick one in your gut, and then school you, yeah. He could still dunk into his sixties, I think.

Michael:
I’m sure he gets on his tip toes when he’s dunking. It’s like, oh just woop, boop.

Joel:
Yeah. But he wasn’t exactly… I think he once said that “Chick” Hearn, the old Laker announcer, said something like, “When Jay Carty runs just like he’s treading wood or something.” So he was the plotting. He was a bench warmer, basically. We got in a few games. So

Michael:
“He’s treading wood,” that’s funny.

Joel:
Treading wood, yeah. So, but no-

Michael:
He’s treading-

Joel:
It’s just funny when it’s like anything, I’m sure, even though you think you’ve lost all this, your wrestling ability and the sadism that goes with it, I guess if you were all of a sudden to be back into it, it would kick in, right? I think so.

Michael:
Yeah. Oh yeah. No, it wouldn’t last as long as it used to. But-

Joel:
Right. Because you’d gas out probably yeah.

Michael:
That first burst… You get control in that first burst, then you can just lay there and rest. Right? If you tie a guy in a knot, you just basically got to lock your hands like this or lock into a grip. And then you’re just reflecting your muscles and then you can breathe. Yeah.

Michael:
I do it with my son every now and then, but he’s gaining in strength. And so a time is going to come. He’s physically pretty much a chip off the old block. He’s doing different sports and excelling at them. And I’m jealous and living vicariously through him.

Joel:
Oh yeah. I went through that. I went through that, yeah, yeah.

Michael:
But-

Joel:
I was a little league dad one time. One time I was your stereotypical, horrific little league dad just-

Michael:
Ah, so you did it once?

Joel:
I have some sin in my life too that I haven’t ever repented.

Michael:
But thinking about being so good at something that you rise to… He rose to the second best level he possibly could have in his era. Right? A bench warmer on the Lakers, a bench warmer in the NBA is the second best most talented at basketball level you could possibly get. To be a starter is the best, right? So there are echelons. And below bench warmer on in the NBA, there’s the D league. Right?

Michael:
But when something like the NBA takes off and becomes super popular, then more people focus their whole lives on getting better and better at that. So in his era, he probably would’ve never even made probably the D league today. Right? Because the physicality of the game, your height is one thing. And you’re born with basketball skill just by being born tall.

Michael:
But comparing eras like Wilt Chamberlain scoring a hundred points in one game. That’s a guy who is out of place in time. Today, he would’ve been probably still a starter. He probably would’ve had to work harder, never would’ve scored a hundred points. Right? So Kobe Bryant’s-

Joel:
The last debate. I was a competitive amateur golfer for a while. I was better than scratch golfer. So which-

Michael:
So you know what I’m talking about? Yeah, yeah.

Joel:
Yeah. And everybody asked me, “Oh Joel, are you going to go pro?” I’m like, “You don’t understand. I’m really good.” But there are guys I played with that I couldn’t even touch. And they were amateurs too. And I was just cannon fodder for them. But those guys were still amateurs. And then there were guys that were local touring pros that they could be both of us. But they would never make it.

Joel:
And the guys that actually make it even to get on the Pro Tour’s one in a million, maybe even 5 million, I don’t know. But there’s plenty of guys with enough talent. I could hit the ball with anybody. But I couldn’t put and tip with them. But I said but there’s a little extra something you have to have to even get to that level. And then the-

Michael:
And then to even excel in that.

Joel:
Yeah. And then the-

Michael:
There’s something called-

Joel:
The Tigers and the Phil Mickelsons and all those guys, they just have something beyond.

Michael:
Are you familiar with the pareto distribution? Have you heard that phrase the pareto distribution?

Joel:
Yes.

Michael:
Jordan Peterson talks about it. And that’s where I first heard about it. It’s something that occurs naturally or the vast majority of stars fit one category. And there’s this small percentage, this 1% is this exclusive thing. That happens in talent as well. Right? So the best of the world are this tiny group. And then that pareto distribution applies. Even within that group, there are those that are so good that they stand out, right? Like Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant and Tom Brady and… Right? Those are people that… Their skillset, they make it look easy. They’re just born to do it. Right?

Joel:
Yes.

Michael:
So not me. Wrestling-

Joel:
Yeah. Not me either.

Michael:
But we were born to something, right? And I think this network and the creativity that… At least I believe God has created me to make this thing, do this thing that I’m doing and to develop the content that I’m doing. And I’m sure you have that same sense that God has called you to your station where you are right now. Right? You are doing something as kingdom-

Joel:
Oh yeah.

Michael:
For the kingdom, but as the kingdom, you are-

Joel:
Yeah I know. My journey to this was, I wish I could say, I started out 10 years ago, I’m going to be doing this or even out of college or whatever. I’ve always envied people that knew from the very start, I’m going to be.

Joel:
And my son, my stepson, he knew he was going be an engineer. And now he’s an engineer. He just did it. And he’ll be doing it the rest of his life.

Joel:
I bounced around so many different places to even the story here, at Christian Podcast Central, I did not come to this to where I am now. I think I told you, I came to print T-shirts here.

Michael:
Yeah. That’s right.

Joel:
And then, because there was a green screen in the corner, 10 years later, I have this podcast network. And I have this full production studio. And like I said, if you would’ve told me 10 years ago this is where you’re going to be, I’m like, “Nah. I’m printing T-shirts, that’s all.”

Joel:
So like I said, when I was on with Jefferson on your other show, it’s for the last 10 years we’ve been trying to figure out what my vision is. And so-

Michael:
And you’re enjoying the ride.

Joel:
I’m enjoying the ride. Yeah. So.

Michael:
Well, about being sensitive to God, seeing opportunity, there’s one sense where things are happening to you and you’d have to respond to it. And your part is, how do I respond to it? There’s do I, do I do this? Or do I do that? And so you are involved in how things unfold. But you’re a partner with God, right? We are partners with God in this journey and you respond a certain way.

Michael:
And I try to tell people when you get to our age, occasionally you have opportunity to speak into other people’s lives, to give advice to people who want to pursue a career associated with what you do. And I try to tell people, I think the key to fulfillment is looking at what you enjoy the most when you’re doing it. Right? That’s a part of a key to fulfillment is while I really, really… Time flies when I’m focused on this one thing, when I’m doing this one thing. And I don’t mean sitting and watching TV, right? I mean being creative or focusing, learning a particular thing.

Michael:
God gives you that portal into your future. If that’s something you want to do, if you’re enjoying that, pursue that. So.

Joel:
Yeah. Yeah. I think in a way, if you’re blessed enough to do… For me, I often say, “I’m the only person that could have done this. Not because I’m so special, but no one else would’ve been in the position I was to…” Like I said, to not know what you’re doing, and yet still have a sense of this is what to do. And-

Michael:
You just wake up there.

Joel:
Yeah. Well, but also my philosophy is I gathered around me people like Jefferson, people that are producers and that were strong Believers. And my biggest fulfillment, the thing that I do best to say, I can say, “What do you need to succeed? And how can we make it happen? I will do my best to help you succeed. And that way we both succeed.”

Joel:
And it’s just the way God has gifted me. I don’t think like anybody else that I know, I just don’t. Nobody else would’ve, I don’t think… Like I said, not that I’m so special, but nobody else would’ve seen this happening.

Joel:
And even then some people like Jefferson and my wife and some other people were… Way back when, when he said, “I love your vision,” I didn’t know what he was talking about, but yet I did know what he was talking about. Because that was God’s still small voice saying, “Joel, yes, this is the direction I want you to go. And you know how I use you.”

Joel:
When I was a high school teacher, I did something that no one else did. I had a printing and graphics class that I taught and we ran a business out of it. And nobody else understood. The principals used to come in and say, “Joel just went to refer an evaluation. So just tell me what you do. I’ll just write it down and give you an E for excellent. Because I don’t what you do. But we”-

Michael:
Right. Do your thing.

Joel:
“We want you to keep doing it.” So it’s always been-

Michael:
I would just confirm-

Joel:
My thing to go against the grain and do my own thing. And so I think I’m the only one that probably could have made this work or this happen. So.

Michael:
And I will confirm that that is your temperament. And what can I do to help? And I’m chomping at the bit to be more involved, and we are collaborating. So I’m grateful that this is happening, right? God put us together and we’re on the same team-

Joel:
And I see this, like I said, I see the same thing you guys see-

Michael:
We’re actually out of time. We’re over time.

Joel:
Yeah. Okay. Continue-

Michael:
So save that thought. You’ll have more intervention with me or something next time. So.

Joel:
That’s all right. I’m still not turning my back on you, but I love you, brother.

Michael:
Well, I love you too. God bless you.

Joel:
All right.

Michael:
And bye everybody.