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Welcome to the Big Picture Podcast, I’m Joel Fieri and I’m back to hopefully bring come clarity and keep the conversation going about what’s happening today in the Church and greater society.
And, I’m not alone this week. I recently had the opportunity to sit down with Dave Murrow, author of Why Men Hate Going to Church and host of the Church for Men podcast, along with e2 media network’s own Jefferson Drexler, to discuss the “Feminization of Today’s Church”. With so many people today hesitant to stand up and say there is something tragically wrong with the course most churches are heading toward, the three of us tackle some tough issues head on… like men are prone to do. So, without further ado, here’s part two of our roundtable discussion…
Jefferson kick of today by asking how has our definition of love been changed or skewed from the Bible’s definition of love.
Dave replies that it’s a maternal love, a mother loves her child unconditionally. If a child tells his mother “I’m a train” the mother replies “Yes, you’re a train, you’re a bear, whatever.” A fathers love is a molding love, studies have shown that men are more likely to let their kid jump from a high dive or if they fall down their not immediately there to pick them up and comfort their child. They say “Get up, brush it off.” There is a need for both. Churches over time tend to materialize, they become more of that comforting. Jesus came to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. The whole idea that Jesus is a social justice worrier that’s a very materialized way of looking at things. Churches tends to do this way and they die, because they lose their men and then lose their masculine spirit.
Jefferson asks is there a direct one to one connection of the church losing their men and the church dying off? Or are their cases where the contrary could happen?
Dave response by saying ever religion who loses it’s men dies. There is a religion right now in America called the shakers. The shakers were a female led movement, they were down to three people their in their 80s. So female led religion all die.
Jefferson asks growing up in his Dad’s church anyone who wanted to lead a small group had to take part of leadership class. A question I always asked was what if Billy Gram were to walk in, would he still have to take that class. Would we lose him because of that? In turn I ask what about a Shirley Dobson or Joyce Meyer some woman who has a great ability to teach and lead do we intentionally keep them away from a leadership role?
Dave says, this is where I make everybody mad. Personally I don’t haven a problem with female teachers. Personally I would have no problem going to a female pastored church, I know I’ve lost half of you. But all things being equal it’s much better to have a man at the helm, most men will relate better to a male leader. The problem that come to the church is when the leadership core of the church becomes female. The problem is not that there is one individual woman up there teaching, the problem is when your elder board becomes dominated by women. Because women see the world through the lens of relationships, men see the world through the lens of rules. You need both but when you see the world through relationships that’s when truth goes out the window. We forget the gospel and we just become a social service agency. This is what is happening with the Christian main line. They were setup 200 years ago and now all these committees are dominated by grandmothers, that’s why they have gone the liberal way they have.
Joel talks about a recent podcast he did where he talked about the micro vs the macro. Macro is the big picture the micro is the inner personal. If we can get men engaged with the macro the big picture decisions men naturally want to save the world, lets let them. And in the micro, the inner personal relationships, let’s let women flourish and let’s let women lead in that, in the world that men save
Dave responds that’s it’s because men ask the question of what, women ask the question of who. The problem of these feminizing churches is they’re not asking the question of what, they’re asking questions of who. Who do they ordain? Who do they marry? Who likes us? Do we allow Gays? Who do we allow to serve in our church? They’re all obsessed with who, if you looks at the magazines women read they’re all obsessed with who. A man’s question is what? What are we here to do? What are we here to accomplish? How are we going to get this done? Quicker and more efficiently, right? What is the mission? When you have a core of older women in their 50s and 60s questions of what are usually secondary to questions of who. Once a church starts asking who, because in the bible it’s “Who so ever?” That question has been answered. Who is qualified to serve in ministry, that’s answered! Who is qualified as an elder, that’s answered! It’s all written down. So when you start asking questions about who you forget about what and your ministry starts spinning it’s wheel gets stuck in the mud.
Jefferson asks, is it fair to ask all guys are ready to charge the hill? Are all men the hill chargers ready to take on the world or are some more laid back? Where is the balance?
Joel responds by saying looks at the example of Jesus and his discipleship model. In Acts 2 the disciples came together in a holy huddle and that wasn’t the calling. The call was to go out to the ends of the earth. So what did God do? He sends a persecution and they all scatter. That is the calling for all men to go.