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Why Men Are Afraid To Make Disciples
Today, we illustrate how ridiculous it is to expect men to make disciples without training, equipping, and support. Yet this is exactly what many preachers and men’s ministers tell their men to do.
The year is 1991, Saddam Hussein has invaded his neighbor to the South. President Bush appears on television to address the nation.
Just two hours ago, allied air forces began an attack on military targets in Iraq, in Kuwait. These attacks continue as I speak. Ground forces are not engaged. Five months ago, Saddam Hussein started this cruel war against Kuwait, tonight the battle has been joined. – President Bush
Now, here’s what president Bush didn’t say. Therefore, I call upon every American citizen to travel to the middle East to fight the Iraqis and help free Kuwait. Private citizens gather your weapons, guns, knives, hatchets, pitchforks, whatever you can find. Book your plane tickets to Baghdad and bring plenty of cash for food, transportation, medicine, and may God be with you in this righteous cause. So obviously that didn’t happen, but what if president Bush had called upon untrained, unequipped, unsupported American citizens to travel 12,000 miles from home to fight a foreign army? Two things, you’d have seen very few volunteers and those who did go would have been routed quickly.
Now, my little historical rewrite is designed to illustrate how ridiculous it is to expect men to make disciples without training, equipping, and support. Yet this is exactly what many preachers and men’s ministers tell their men to do. Many are times I’ve been admonished from the pulpit to just go out and make some disciples on my own with little or no support from the church. “Just go out and find a handful of guys and start discipling them,” they say. The few men who try this are usually routed. They quickly find themselves in over their heads. They have a bad experience so they never try it again. And that’s how men become afraid to make disciples.
You are listening to the Church For Men podcast. We’re not calling men back to church, we’re calling the church back to men. My name is David Murrow, Director of Church For Men, and author of the book, Why Men Hate Going to Church. And joining me is Brett Clemmer, President and CEO of Man in the Mirror, and coauthor of the book, No Man Left Behind.
https://churchformen.com/ & https://www.dannyavila.com/web/christianpodcastcentral/
Interview:
David Murrow:
Now before your church starts a men’s ministry program, contact Man in the Mirror. They have 90 area directors across the USA who are standing by ready to help you build a discipleship pathway for every man in your church. Brett, what are we talking about today?
Brett Clemmer:
Hey Dave. Today we’re talking about, why are men afraid to make disciples?
David Murrow:
Okay. And now my little story at the beginning with president Bush, did that resonate with you? Have you heard of churches sending their men out unprepared?
Brett Clemmer:
Oh, all the time. They tell guys to go take the hill, but they don’t give them any equipment or anything, any training, anything to go do that with. So they’re just lost.
David Murrow:
Yeah. So what happens? What do you typically see when guys do this?
Brett Clemmer:
Well, like you said, sometimes guys will try, the outgoing, natural extroverts will try and they’re not really prepared for it. And so either they sort of muddle through and figure it out. A few guys will muddle through and figure it out, but most of the guys just they either crash and burn or they just sort of fade into the woodwork when they realize that they’re really not making an impact.
David Murrow:
Yeah. Now, first of all I got to say we’re not jumping on pastors, the Church For Men podcast is all about encouragement. When we point out a deficiency in the church, the purpose is to bring it to light so that we can bring it before the Lord and make the changes that are necessary. So we’re not bashing pastors here, but I think a lot of pastors or at least men’s ministers don’t realize the consequences of sending men unprepared into discipleship situations. When you tell a man to disciple another man, what’s he likely to encounter?
Brett Clemmer:
Well, the biggest thing he’s going to encounter is guys that don’t even know that they’re supposed to be disciples. And so here he is, he’s trying to convince them of the need for them to follow Christ more closely. He’s talking to guys that are just trying to make a marriage work, trying to pay the bills and doesn’t have a lot of spiritual interest. And then that guy is wondering how do I get a guy inspired? Or worse off, what happens all of a sudden he is inspired, now what do I do? I’ve got a guy that wants to be discipled and I’m not even sure what that means.
David Murrow:
Right. We often reduce discipleship to evangelism training, how do we get the guy saved? And that’s an important first step. But then beyond that you’re going to run into things like pornography addiction, you’re going to run into histories of abuse. Maybe the man’s been abused or maybe he is an abuser in his relationship, you run into some really heavy stuff. And if your disciple maker is not prepared to deal with these sorts of practical issues as well as the underlying spiritual issues, he can find himself in over his head very quickly. Have you seen situations like that?
Brett Clemmer:
Oh, he really can. And the issue is the guy that’s trying to be the disciple maker, he sometimes is dealing with those issues in his own life as well. And so if he hasn’t dealt with them there, then he doesn’t know how to help another guy deal with them either. So it really is a situation where we’re not intentionally, but we’ll oftentimes I think we set guys up to fail just because we don’t think through the ramifications of what we’re asking them to do.
David Murrow:
All right. Let me go back to my little story about president Bush. So what did he actually do? He didn’t ask Americans, untrained, unequipped, unprepared Americans to go over and fight the Gulf war, he sent in the military. And these individuals were well trained, they were well-equipped, they were well supported. And in four days they made it to Baghdad. It was one of the quickest military incursions in history because he sent people who were prepared. Jesus was the same way, he didn’t just send men out to do his kingdom work. I think it’s interesting.
David Murrow:
He first trained 12 and then he sent out 72. Now, I can work a calculator, 12 into 72 is six. So if each disciple discipled six more or each pair discipled 12 more, you can get to 72. So all of that implies, even though it’s not recorded directly in scripture, it implies that there was a process by which Jesus prepared the 12 and prepared the 72 to do the type of ministry at which demons submitted in the name of Jesus. So, he didn’t just toss them out there, he prepared them. And so what are some of the ways that churches and pastors and men’s leaders can create a disciple-making men’s ministry?
Brett Clemmer:
Yeah. Let me just say I like what you’re saying here. Obviously Jesus had a structure, it wasn’t just I’m Jesus and now because you’ve been around me all of a sudden you know what to do, right? He really took the time to train them. That’s what disciple means actually as student or follower. And let me point this out too. President Bush sent an all volunteer army out, right? So this is a great thing to remind guys in the church. Well, sometimes guys will say, well, I can’t make disciples, I’m not a professional, that’s the pastor’s job or that’s the staff’s job. And maybe they even say, look, we have a professional army. Yeah, we have a professional army that’s made up of volunteers.
Brett Clemmer:
And so we need to be, remember that old kids song I’m In the Lord’s Army? We need guys out there that join the army as well, and then take the time to go through, I think the equivalent of basic training and then specialized training. And then they call upon their own experiences and background. They find guys that are a little bit behind them on the spiritual journey and they walk alongside them, and they help them learn what the Bible says and learn how to apply it to their lives at its basic level. That’s what we’re trying to do, trying to help guys learn what the Bible says and learn how to apply it to their lives as they develop a relationship with Christ.
David Murrow:
So what does this look like in a local church? How would you get something like this started? It sounds like it’s got a lot of moving parts.
Brett Clemmer:
Well, I think the first thing you have to do really is cast some vision. I think guys don’t really understand even why they should make disciples. We get caught up in the vocabulary, we get caught up in sort of the lingo of the church, especially it’s a lot of guys that have been sitting in church for a long time really unchallenged and don’t really know what to do. And then when they do get challenged, they still don’t know what to do because we don’t really explain it to them, and we certainly don’t explain to them why. So a pastor or a men’s leader, you need to start with the vision. Why do men need to be discipled? What happens? And you can make all kinds of arguments for that. You can look at the biblical call to make disciples.
Brett Clemmer:
We all know Matthew 28:18, go therefore and make disciples of all nations. We know that the example that we see of Christ and then of his apostles and Paul and the other. As the church grew we see the example of disciples making disciples. But then you can look at, I think the other way to look at this, Dave, to really help guys see the importance of this is to look at the ramifications of not discipling men. So just look at our culture. First of all, I would say that most of the social issues that we see today can often be traced back to a man failing. And often a man that didn’t mean to fail, he wanted to be successful but he just didn’t know how to do that.
Brett Clemmer:
So discipleship is a way of helping men live the life that God made them to live and to be successful as fathers, and husbands, and workmen, and neighbors. That’s the end result of discipleship. So if we say, hey, we want you to reach out to men so that they can fulfill God’s call in their life and so that they can be successful fathers and husbands and then ultimately build God’s kingdom. So I think we have to cast vision. Without vision there’s no motivation, there’s no inspiration, it’s just an obligation. And guys, I don’t know about you, but most guys I know aren’t really compelled by obligation.
David Murrow:
Yeah, I’m not really looking for more things to add to my calendar.
Brett Clemmer:
Exactly.
David Murrow:
Yeah. So, all right. So once you’ve cast that vision and you’ve got, and not every guy is going to buy in, but a few will. God is going to call a couple of guys to do this. What’s the next step? What do you do with them?
Brett Clemmer:
Yeah, so then I think after you build vision then the next reason that guys don’t do things I think is once they are convinced of of the vision and they’re motivated, then the next thing that they hide from is, well, I’m not competent, I don’t know what I’m doing. And this is the army training. A guy joins the army and 36 hours later he has a buzz cut. And that’s about it, a buzz cut in a uniform, but we don’t send him into war with a buzz cut in a uniform just because he raised his hand and volunteered, now we have to help him get trained. And so you want to get that guy into some kind of Bible study to help him know the Bible himself. You need to help him establish what we would call, some people call spiritual disciplines. I like the term spiritual habits better than that. Just living his life in a way that he prays regularly, that he wants to know God’s word better and then he wants to know how to apply it himself.
Brett Clemmer:
You probably want to get him a discipler, somebody who can mentor him and help him grow in his faith and show him the way. And then finally you’re going to get them in a situation where he can practice discipleship. Maybe he’s in a small group and he’s the assistant leader in the small group, or he is in a Bible study at church, or he’s involved in a ministry as a co-leader where he’s not in charge but he’s under a more mature man and is learning the ropes so to speak. Just like a guy in basic training has the sergeants and then even when he gets into specialized training, he’s got guys who know how to do what he is supposed to do, showing him and then watching him, and then giving him the responsibility to go do it himself. So I think it’s a pretty natural progression for a guy to do.
David Murrow:
So it starts with vision, then it goes to the training, and then you need supply lines. You need spiritual mentors who keep track of the men who are doing the discipling. Sort of like Paul was an overseer to Timothy. And so that guys don’t end up bogged down running off the rails or getting into a situation that’s just too much to handle.
Brett Clemmer:
Right. And disciple-making is hard work, it’s trench work so to speak. A lot of guys will disappoint you. I don’t know about you, but I’ve had this experience over and over again where a guy will say he’ll do something and then he won’t do it. It’s like the parable of the four seeds, those middle two seeds fell on soil and looked good for a little while. And then either their roots were shallow or the worries and cares and the deceitfulness of wealth choked it out. So you’ve got to have a little bit of a thick skin. And so that’s why you need those guys to keep encouraging you and telling you that you just got to keep going. I’m going to support you, I’m going to pray for you. And guys are going to disappoint you, you need to have that expectation. But that doesn’t mean that you quit, it just means that you find the next guy and work to disciple him and keep that process going.
Brett Clemmer:
And then here there’s two things I think we lose sight of. One is that if you keep being faithful, God will take care of the results. So a man who just keeps putting himself out there, keeps offering to meet with guys one-on-one, keeps offering to lead a small group or lead a ministry wherever his calling and his skillset takes him, that over time he can look back and he’ll realize the effectiveness of what he’s been doing and how God’s been using him. Because I’ve learned that discipleship almost never feels successful in the present. You have to get some distance and then you look back and you realize that over time you really have made an impact.
Brett Clemmer:
And I think the other thing Dave is, I don’t think we recognize these guys enough. I don’t think we give them the affirmation and the visibility that they need. I think churches need to do a better job of celebrating the guys that are really putting themselves out there and discipling other people. I think we do that well maybe with some ministries more than others, but when it comes to men’s discipleship, I think we need to recognize the guys that are doing a great job and are sacrificing their time and energy to build into the lives of other men.
David Murrow:
As I think of different churches I’ve attended over the years, I’m trying to think of those guys who might’ve had a reputation as the disciple makers, the guy that you could send somebody to. Oh, here’s a guy who was maybe cheating on his wife, or maybe he’s in a funk or he has lost his job. Who’s that guy, that rock solid guy who’s basically the swap team for men? And he’s the guy that gets those calls in the middle of the night. He’s the guy who says, hey, this is what you need to do. I think a lot of churches don’t even have one man who’s doing that type of work or who has the support around him to enable him to deal with those sorts of issues. Do you think most churches have that kind of guy?
Brett Clemmer:
In my experience I think most churches have at least a guy like that, but it’s often a guy. And he’s a little over taxed and there he is by himself and maybe he’s like, if he’s lucky he’s buddies with a pastor, so at least he’s got some support there. But how do you create guys like that? Here’s one way that you could create guys like that. And that is that if a pastor will find the three, four guys in his church that he considers to be the most spiritually mature guys, the best equipped guys to be disciple makers, and then he will take I would say a solid year or a year and a half even, and pour into those guys and study the Bible with them and spend social time with them, and do family things with them. Two things, the greatest benefit of that is, then at least a couple of those guys will probably rise up and be ready to work alongside the pastor to be disciple makers in the church.
Brett Clemmer:
Now, if a pastor is going to do that, he’s going to have to be willing to take a little heat because there’s going to be some guys in the church that think that they should be a part of that group. And for a pastor he can say to those guys, you know what? I would love for you to be in the next group. In the meantime, could you just be a faithful man and go serve in the church and then when I’m ready to have a new group of guys that I pour into man I would love it if you would be there for that. And then the quality guys will wait that out and the guys that won’t wait it out have probably self-selected themselves right out of that group anyway because they just weren’t mature enough.
David Murrow:
Right. Now, I want to give a shout out to an organization that you and I are both members of, that’s the National Coalition of Ministries to Men, ncmm.org. There are a lot of really good materials and discipleship materials available through the NCMM membership. I can think of no less than a dozen ministries that have developed specific curricula to be used in churches to develop men and to develop men’s ministries. So, I just wanted to shout out to them.
Brett Clemmer:
I was going to say, so NCMM is what you were talking about is your supply line. They’ve got lots of organizations, and they can go to ncmm.org to find that membership list and look through those ministries, those websites listed there. But that’s your supply line for resources that you can use to disciple men
David Murrow:
And you also represent an organization called Man in the Mirror, and you guys have some great resources as well. Give a little shout out for that.
Brett Clemmer:
Sure. Well, Man in the Mirror has as we talked at the top, that we have coaches, we call them area directors. 90 of them right now all around the country that are really just, they exist to come alongside men’s leaders and pastors and help them develop discipleship pathways for their men. And then we’ve got resources like men’s events. I was just at a men’s event this past weekend. We have Bible studies and books and then we have a pretty unique resource David, it’s a video Bible study. It’s a 30 minutes of teaching and then a downloadable handout that has discussion questions in a note taking outline. And we’ve been recording the Bible. We’ve been doing this Bible study for 33 years, but recording it for about the last 15 or 16. And so whatever 50 Bible studies a year times 16 years is, we’ve got those available online and they’re all downloadable for free from our website.
David Murrow:
Pastors, please don’t admonish your men to go out and grab a handful of men and start discipling them unless you are willing to stand behind them and equip them, that’s the theme of today’s message. And my name is David Murrow. Thanks for joining us on the Church For Men podcast. If you want to learn more about my ministry, churchformen.org. You want to reach Brett, you can reach him through maninthemirror.org. And also we’re very active on Facebook at Church For Men on the Facebook channel. So, Brett thanks again and we’ll see you next time.
Brett Clemmer:
See you next time Dave.
https://churchformen.com/ & https://www.dannyavila.com/web/christianpodcastcentral/