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Reaching Unchurched Men, most contemporary churches offer almost nothing of interest to a visitor during the first 30 minutes of the service.
Trevor was raised in a traditional church, but quit going during his early teens. Now that his partying days are over and he’s feeling the urge to return, he decides to try a large church in his city that’s supposed to be really great for young people.
Parking is easy with friendly men to guide him to an empty spot. A smiling woman hands him a flyer as he enters a darkened windowless room with two huge screens projecting time bomb style countdowns. There’s an elevated stage beneath a rock show style lighting truss.
Trevor finds a seat and shares a nod with a slightly older couple down the row. As the clock strikes zero, a young man with a guitar takes the stage. “Welcome to church. Let’s all worship,” he says. As he strums his first note, people all over the sparsely populated auditory and begin to stand. So Trevor’s stands. He’s never heard the song they’re playing (singing).
The crowd remains standing as the band transitions to another song Trevor has never heard (singing). Trevor looks around. Lyrics appear on the screen, but hardly anybody is singing them. In fact, no men around him is even making the attempt.
Instead, the men stare blankly at the stage, hands in pockets while the band rocks out. The man down the row is checking something on his iPhone. Then the band plays a third song he’s never heard, and then a fourth. Still almost no one is singing.
Finally, the band stops except for the keyboardist who quietly plays under opening prayer, which is delivered by a smiling muscular man covered in tattoos. The prayer is brief, about 20 seconds long, and ends with a handclap and aloud, “Amen.” The tattooed man invites the congregation to take their seats, introduces himself, and welcomes the visitors.
After a couple of announcements, the band fires up another song and immediately the crowd begins rising to its feet, and so does Trevor, reluctantly. The band plays two more songs Trevor has never heard. Trevor checks his watch. He’s been here almost 25 minutes and all he’s done is stand in the dark listening to a band play songs nobody seems to know.
The whole thing feels like a show to him, like canned entertainment, so he slips out the back door and decides not to come back. Church growth experts tell us that visitors decide in the first 10 minutes whether or not they’ll return. Entire books have been written to help churches with their front door experience.
The consultants that write these books emphasize easy parking, friendly visitors, and a seamless check-in for kids’ church, but nobody’s addressing the elephant in the room. The uncomfortable situation we create for visitors by front loading our worship services with music.
Most contemporary churches offer almost nothing of interest to a visitor during the first 30 minutes of the service. You are listening to the Church for Men podcast. Many have called men back to the church, but we are calling the church back to men. My name is David Morrow, Director of Church for Men and author of the book, Why Men Hate Going to Church.
Joining me is Brett Clemmer, President and CEO of Man in the Mirror and coauthor of the book No Man Left Behind. Now before your church starts a men’s ministry program, contact Man in the Mirror, they have 90 area directors across the USA who are standing by ready to help you build a discipleship pathway for every man in your church.
https://churchformen.com/ & https://www.dannyavila.com/web/christianpodcastcentral/
Interview
David Morrow: Brett, what are we talking about today?
Brett Clemmer: Well, hey Dave, I think we’re talking about Trevor, this poor guy and are seeker friendly churches still seeker friendly? Does it make sense for a guy like Trevor, who apparently it doesn’t. I think the guy with tattoos that prayed scared him out the back door.
David Morrow: I think the handclap was a little loud. What do you think?
Brett Clemmer: Yeah.
David Morrow: Well, and then the secondary question is are seeker churches man friendly? The model that we’ve been following in seeker friendly churches was given to us in the 1980s by churches like Saddleback and Willow Creek and The Vineyard and it was invented 40 years ago. And so nobody’s really asking, “Are our seeker friendly churches still reaching seekers or are we just recycling the people who want the type of model of church that was developed in the 1980s?”
Brett Clemmer: Right, and I think those churches in the 80s, I mean they did a great job though. They built large churches. They drew people in. They were different than anything else that was going on at the time. And so for their day, for their time, there was a certain appeal to them.
Brett Clemmer: I think a lot of that appeal was probably calling people that had been in church and had gotten kind of bored with it to come back. But I don’t know that it’s true seekers and I certainly don’t know that that model works as well today, probably as it did 30 years ago.
David Morrow: Well, that’s what we’re going to be talking about. And as with everything on the Church for Men podcast, we are not here to cast aspersions at the church, or tell you you are doing church wrong. We are here to encourage you to offer constructive criticism and a different point of view about the church so that you can use what you hear on this podcast to edify the body of Christ.
David Morrow: That’s our purpose and that’s our goal and we don’t do nothing else here. So now, Brett, what are you hearing from men about church? Are you hearing any rumblings of dissatisfaction or are men completely enamored with the types of church we have today?
Brett Clemmer: Wow, that’s a big question, Dave. I’m hearing that there are some guys who are dissatisfied with this kind of church. If I could share my own experience, my wife and I had been married for 28 years and when we first got married and we moved to Orlando, where we live now, we went to one of these big churches and we loved it.
Brett Clemmer: The music was great and the preaching was great and everything about it screamed quality and we really, really enjoyed it. We got engaged and we really, really enjoyed it. But we were a couple of… My wife’s a preacher’s kid, I grew up in the church and so a lot of it felt familiar. It just felt like sort of a refreshed version of what we were familiar with.
Brett Clemmer: But I think you’re right, guys like Trevor who come into a church that aren’t churched, there’s more and more unchurched men out there, and so we want to get them engaged with the gospel. The church service is the place that one of the things that we would want to invite them to, and I think a lot of guys that come in unchurched to a church service would feel very out of place, could feel very out of place in some of the big churches that you see.
David Morrow: Yeah, I’m hearing from guys there is definitely some rumblings of dissatisfaction, even among very committed Christian men. I sit for interviews and these guys will secretly… These are guys who are well known in the church. If I dropped their names, you would know who they were.
David Morrow: And they look at me and they say, “God, Dave, I can’t stand to go to church anymore. I love the Lord. I like my pastor’s preaching, but all the stuff around it is just like fingernails on a chalkboard.” I mean we have guys that I call pray skippers. These are the guys who stand out in the lobby and drink coffee till the music is over, because they can’t stand how girly and romantic the music is.
David Morrow: So there is a lot of dissatisfaction. The question is what do we do about it? We have some practical things that are creating barriers to seekers. For example, we’ve done away with the liturgy and the bulletin in our evangelical churches. It used to be you’d come into church and there’d be an order of worship and there’d be this typed bulletin that would tell you exactly what was going to happen. This will happen and this will happen in this will happen.
David Morrow: Well, the reason we did away with that is because we prefer that our churches create the illusion for us that the worship service is under the control of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit wouldn’t provide a bulletin. He would simply do what He wants to do. So we want to create this illusion of spirit ledness, even though the service is actually planned down to the second.
David Morrow: So we did away with the bulletin. Well, the problem is, so a guy like Trevor comes in, he stands there and 20, 25 minutes of singing and he’s thinking, “Will this ever end? When do they get to the good parts?” So front loading with music, no bulletin, we’re trying to create this illusion of organic spirit led worship, but what it’s doing is our seekers, they’re getting very impatient.
David Morrow: I mean people are used to things happening quickly now and supposedly we’re giving the spirit as much time as He wants, but I think in a lot of ways we’re turning guests off.
Brett Clemmer: Yeah, and I think the irony here is that the only reason, or the primary reason anyway, that we did these things was out of a real desire to reach those people. So in a way, we sort of shot ourselves in the foot in some cases. I’ll give you the word, I think this is the buzz word of the day. Authenticity.
Brett Clemmer: We want it to feel authentic and not canned and we want it to feel spontaneous, like you said, spontaneous and spirit led. And so we’ve created these things that are less, or they feel less organized, even though I don’t think anybody is really fooled by that. I think a lot of times your first or second time there, you realize there’s a ton of organization behind the scenes for that.
Brett Clemmer: And so I think in the name of being authentic, in the name of being spontaneous or feeling spontaneous, and maybe that’s the other buzzword here, right Dave? Is feeling.
David Morrow: Yeah. Yeah. Don’t get me started. Don’t get me started.
Brett Clemmer: Oh yeah. So now let me tell you one interesting little side note here. I’m reading some studies out there about the youth movement back into the liturgical church, and I’ve got personal experience with that. My son who grew up in my household in first a big church and then a smaller church, but still a significantly sized church that did many of these things.
Brett Clemmer: He’s now in a liturgical denomination studying to be clergy. And he said a lot of his friends are drawn back into the liturgical church for all the reasons that you’re saying because of the orderliness of it, and really being able to feel like they’re participating more because they can see what’s coming. And it’s just more of an intentional service for them, and they really like that. They appreciate that.
David Morrow: I’m wondering if that’s a trickle or a flood. I keep hearing that young people are coming back to liturgy, but we keep planting churches based on the Hillsong model, which is basically a rock concert with a sermon tacked onto the side. So, I mean, what do you think? Do you know which way?
Brett Clemmer: When I go into churches like that, I see a lot of Boomers. I see a lot of Gen X’ers. I don’t see as many of the young families. This is all subjective, but I don’t feel like I see as many families when I go into churches like that as I used to in those, like you said, concert type churches.
David Morrow: Well, that brings me to another point and something that I always talk about when I talk about bringing more men into church, is the highly emotive nature of the music that we play. Often a lot of the music that I grew up with in the church, the traditional hymns made it sound like we were headed onto the battlefield with Jesus.
David Morrow: But today’s songs make it sound like we’re headed into the bedroom with Jesus. They place the worshiper in the role of the woman. Brett, what if I were to say to you, “Brett, I’m desperate for you. I am so in love with you.” How would you feel? Would you feel good about that?
Brett Clemmer: I would not feel good about that, Dave, and I call these songs clutch media or bosom Lord songs. Jesus was a dude. I don’t want Him to clutch me to His bosom. Like you said, I want to follow him into battle. I want to live an authentic life in front of people and do it in a brave and courageous way. I don’t want to sing love songs to my friends to help them know who Jesus is. It doesn’t feel right to me at all.
David Morrow: All of the themes, the themes are really more focused on women than men, because women are quite comfortable thinking of themselves as loving Jesus or relaxing in His arms. These are appealing metaphors for a woman, but they’re kind of creepy for men.
David Morrow: And then just for practicalities, Brett, I mean, what do you do when you go in and you don’t know the tune of the song? I mean, men are all about competence, right? If they don’t know the tune, are they going to sing?
Brett Clemmer: They assume the posture, I call it the male worship posture in these churches, it’s the arms folded and maybe sort of swaying back and forth a little bit with the beat. But you’re not really participating, because it just doesn’t appeal to you. It doesn’t resonate with you. It’s not how we’re wired.
David Morrow: Yeah, guys are going to sing songs they know. And in a lot of churches are one and done churches. I mean they literally sing songs one time and they never sing them again. That’s terrible for men. Men need to feel competent. They need to feel like they know the song. And that’s one of the reasons I always advise worship leaders sing at least one familiar hymn every Sunday.
David Morrow: You can jazz it up, you can do it with guitar. You don’t even have to do it with a pipe organ for heaven’s sake. But when the guys hear Amazing Grace, they know they’re in church, they want to sing Amazing Grace, they know the song. Do a familiar hymn or Rock of Ages or any of the songs that men can relate to, battle songs.
David Morrow: Now back to the topic of front loading with music though, you’ve got a couple of studies in front of you. Do people really come to church for music? Is that why they’re there?
Brett Clemmer: Well, that’s the interesting thing. In the name of being more attractional, we make music front and center, when in fact that’s not what the studies are telling us that people are coming to church for. So here’s a couple of quick ones. In a 2016 study from Pew, the Pew Research Center on religion and public life. The top two things that drew people into the church were, number one, quality of sermons.
Brett Clemmer: 83% Of the people said the quality of the sermon is what drew them in. And then the second thing was feeling welcomed. And a Gallup poll, Dave, they asked people the reasons for attending church or their place of worship. Number one was the sermons or talks teach me more about scripture, 76% of the people said that. 75% Of the people said that the sermons help connect my faith to my own life.
Brett Clemmer: Dead last on the list of what drew them into the church was the music. And so that’s not why people are going to church. They may enjoy it or not enjoy it when they get there, but what they really want to do is they want to learn about their faith. They want to know God, they want to know the Bible, and they want to know how to apply it. So I think a winsome sermon may be the actual secret sauce for church growth.
David Morrow: Well, I couldn’t agree more and I think most pastors are rejoicing right now to hear those statistics, but we’ve still got this situation where Hillsong is the predominant model. Everybody looks at Hillsong and they see this huge network, two million worshipers around the country. They’ve just become their own denomination.
David Morrow: They’re popping up like mushrooms and everybody says, “We’re addicted to music, we’ve got to have this music or certain members in our congregation are going to revolt.” So what do we do? I’m going to throw out some suggestions. You can throw out some suggestions. The first one I’m going to say is you don’t have to ditch the music, but you’ve got to provide people with something besides music in the first 10 minutes.
David Morrow: If you’re not providing them with something that has a bearing on their lives or points them to a bigger life through Christ in the first 10 minutes, you’re missing out. So I would say do a testimony, talk about a mission project, talk about the martyrs. I mean something that’s going to challenge the heart of a man in that first 10 minutes.
Brett Clemmer: I’m going to tell you a couple of quick stories. I’m in a church that once a month on the same Sunday, every month, they have a person stand up there and share their testimony. They’re often very nervous. They’re not a professional speaker, but people love it because it’s real, it’s authentic, it’s connective, and people feel inspired by seeing somebody that’s just like them up in front of the congregation, talking about what God has done in their lives or through them in the lives of someone else. It works. It really connects with people and it makes people begin to envision how they could be living out the gospel in their lives as well.
David Morrow: Yeah. But put it up front, get it in the first 10 minutes. Here’s another one. How about shorter worship sets? Can I have an amen?
Brett Clemmer: Amen.
David Morrow: Amen.
Brett Clemmer: I don’t know why we feel like sometimes we sing… I have been in… Have you been in a service that they sing like six, seven, eight songs?
David Morrow: Oh yeah, right. And then the chorus goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on.
Brett Clemmer: And on and on.
David Morrow: Yeah, right. Because they’re trying to create that emotional hothouse, that feeling of connecting with God. And so it’s a tough one. But yeah, I think shorter worship sets, there’s nothing in the Bible that says you have to string nine songs together.
Brett Clemmer: Or sing the same chorus nine times.
David Morrow: Yeah, right. It’s not more spiritual. And then there’s another one, the slower you go, the more spiritual it is. Stop it. I just want to slap them. I just want to slap them. What else can we do to make-
Brett Clemmer: Let me say this, let me give this caveat. There are people that do connect that way. That’s why anybody does it, is because there are a few people that like it. And so we’re not saying get rid of the music or even get rid of the emotive songs, but it can’t be the only diet, because you’re disengaging, I don’t know, 80% maybe of your congregation when that’s all you ever do. The folks that aren’t wired like that are not going to find that appealing. And so they’re just going to check out and they may even just not come back.
David Morrow: Well, now here’s a crazy idea. I mean it just seems like in the last 10 years, whenever the band plays, people automatically rise to their feet and people are allowed to assume whatever body posture they want when they want. So what happens is about 80 to 90% of the people stand up due to peer pressure.
David Morrow: And then the other 10% get a nice view of their neighbors backsides during the music. So what’s wrong with a worship leader asking the congregation to stand and sit in unison? Is that so out of fashion these days? What do you think?
Brett Clemmer: No, I think it’s helpful, especially if the whole purpose of some of these things that you’re doing with your music is to reach people that aren’t there very often. If you have people that aren’t there very often, they need to know what to do and they don’t like feeling incompetent or lost or sort of like there’s some kind of a secret code that they don’t know, they feel on the outside.
Brett Clemmer: So tell them to sit down, tell them to stand up. Even if you feel like 80% of the people know what to do, I don’t think they’re going to mind you telling them, and the other 20% that didn’t know what to do are going to not feel like they’re lost.
David Morrow: Yeah. And I think there’s even a theological underpinning to that. I think there’s so much individuality, just a toxic individuality in our culture right now. I mean we live in a culture where everybody defines everything about themselves, even down to their gender. And the church has to be a place where we model unity, not necessarily this toxic individuality.
David Morrow: And I’m not saying it’s toxic if you stand or sit as you feel led, but on the other hand, here’s an opportunity for us all to do something together. And it’s a small thing, but I don’t mind being under competent leadership. I think we need to model unity even in our worship. And so that’s my two cents on that.
Brett Clemmer: I think that’s good. Another thing that we could talk about is, we talked about lyrics, but the pitch that we sing at. When we do sing songs, I feel like sometimes I’ve either got to like drop down an octave or I just can’t sing because the songs too high. And so I feel very dis-included, probably is the best word I could use, when I can’t sing the song. And I think that leads to that folded arms posture as well.
David Morrow: All right. One more thing and then we’ll draw to a close. I advise worship leaders or pastors not to sing after the sermon. Sort of our tradition that a lot of us have come out of the Baptist Evangelical approach came to us because of the altar call. The idea that after the word was preached, you would have an altar call in which you would invite people to come forward and escape the flames of hell and receive Jesus as their personal Lord and savior.
David Morrow: Well, a good altar call requires music because you need songs, you need time for the spirit to convict. And so we got into this habit of doing music, a music set after the sermon was over. Now in that altar call context, this made sense. But today we don’t do altar calls very often, but we still are in the habit of having the band come up and play two or three songs after the sermon.
David Morrow: Now the problem is that singing requires a different part of the brain. The cognitive regions of the brain are on the left side, whereas the artistic side is the right side. So when we preach a sermon and then we sing two or three songs afterwards, we’re basically scrubbing the words out of our brains because we forced the worshiper to move from one side of his brain to the other.
David Morrow: So if you want your sermon to stick, I advise you not to sing a music set after the sermon. Just offer a quick benediction, a goodbye, God bless you, a pastors challenge, invite people to have a discussion. I know some churches that even have a moderated discussion for people that want to stay and the pastor takes your questions. Anything you can do to make that sermon stick, I think that’s extremely visitor friendly, and I think it’s also a great thing for men.
David Morrow: All right, well thank you very much for joining us on the Church for Men podcast. If you’d like to learn more about Brett and Man in the Mirror, Brett, how would you do that?
Brett Clemmer: You would go to maninthemirror.org where you would find a ton of free resources, including over 800 video Bible studies that you can download along with a note taking outline and discussion questions, plus information on how to train your leaders to create a discipleship pathway for every man in your church. And how could they learn more about Church for Men, Dave?
Brett Clemmer: If you want to learn more about Church for Men, go to churchformen.com. We’re also very active on Facebook. Just type in Church for Men and our page will pop up. Please like us there and we keep an ongoing conversation there. I post the most interesting things from the interwebs regarding men, church, gender and all the craziness that’s going on in our world today.
Brett Clemmer: So join us next time the Church for Men podcast. Until then, I’m Dave Morrow, your host, and thanks for joining us.
https://churchformen.com/ & https://www.dannyavila.com/web/christianpodcastcentral/